With regard to your first couple of paragraphs I think you’ve misunderstood something along the line; You said “…about the resurrection and you said that no one seems to show particular interest in it” but we were actually talking about the story of the ascension, not the resurrection.

And beyond referring me to a website about the Shroud of Turin you’ve not really answered any of my questions about how you think the ascension might have worked (and why).

The topic of the claim of the efficacy of prayer was a separate one and it looks like you’re linking the two by the way you run straight from quoting my questions about the ascension to paste-bombing stories of healing.

Addressing your point 1:
Someone’s child who was currently being treated for cancer had a lump in their body that they thought might have been another cancer but when they did a biopsy they found that it wasn’t (or was it that they also discovered that the cancer treatment had worked and had got rid of his existing cancer?). Either way this is, at best, extremely misdirected. If you get a fungal infection and you apply an anti-fungal cream as well as praying do you think it’s the prayer that fixed it or the cream?

Addressing point 2:
What??!!

Addressing point 3:
When you reference a study it’s important that you link to it rather than just quote from it. It gives people the opportunity to cross-check properly. If these studies do exist I’m really interested in reading them to see what their methodology was. The one I referenced was published in the American Heart Journal but can also be found in PubMed which might be a good place to look for other studies. Your first study mentions that they tested 393 patients and that’s about all I’ve got to go on. What I can tell you from the study I’ve linked to is that they studied over 1800 people and that the results showed that prayer made no difference whatsoever (except a possible negative effect where the people who knew they were being prayed for did a little worse than the others).

Which leads to an interesting question; if a study was done of 1800 people and we all agreed that it was performed properly that showed that prayer was effective for curing people would you trust the study on it’s methodology? If so, would you trust the same study if it showed the opposite? Or would your beliefs trump evidence?

To be honest I’m not sure how much farther we can take this conversation. I personally find it very interesting but I’m not convinced we’re going to get anywhere as we come from very different angles and to be honest, I can’t afford the amount of time that replying to you is consuming when there is such a disconnect.

I wish you well for the future and that your treatment for epilepsy goes smoothly.

Okay I made the claim that prayer does help sick people. In some cases prayer heals people miraculously, brings healing emotionally, or improves health and symptoms. In some cases it can be harmful. I also made the claim that miracles do happen and the best explanation for them is that God was the miracle worker.

1. Here’s a situation to where prayer was needed and the miraculous happened. This was Alan Cross’ request for prayer. Alan is part of the Baptist family in Missouri in the United States. He had 81 people respond to his request. You can take a look at http://www.downshoredrift.com. or down below is his request.

February 21, 2008
“Many of my readers have been praying for my son Caelan. Almost two years ago, he was diagnosed with cancer as an eight month old. He is now two and a half. We went to Children’s Hospital in Birmingham yesterday for Caelan’s 3 month scans. He has been out of treatment for cancer since last April and all of the scans have gone well – up until yesterday. The oncologist came in and told us that they found an enlarged lymph node behind his heart. If he had not had a history of cancer they would just watch it and it still might just be an infection, but they are very concerned about the enlargement. The doctors have scheduled a futher test for next week and a biopsy. The biopsy will be quite invasive as they have to go in through the side of his chest to get to the lymph node. Please pray that they are able to go straight to it, because if there are any problems with a small incision and scope, then they will have to open him up right then.

We had thought things were going well, our little boy was growing, and we were basically out of the woods. Yesterday, all that came crashing down. During Caelan’s treatment we were told that if this type of cancer ever came back, he would not have a very good chance of making it. Our oncologist confirmed that yesterday. We are fervently praying that this is just an infection, but the doctors seem to think otherwise – or, at least they are not very confident that this is anything other than another expression of the cancer. The doctors are so confident that they are pushing for a very risky surgery to get at this. We have a lot of decisions to make – we desperately need God’s guidance, wisdom, comfort, and healing power.

Erika and I are devastated. My emotions feel like they are spinning around in a washing machine. All we can do is cry out to God and ask Him to have mercy. If there was ever a case where we needed a miracle, this is it.

Caelan is such a beautiful boy. I am grieving like I never have in my life.”

Well God decided to respond to the prayers and miraculously healed Caelan. Here’s the outcome of the story.

March 06, 2008
Caelan Does Not Have Cancer!!!
Our oncologist just came in with the pathology results: Caelan does not have cancer!!! They don’t know exactly what the mass is and they said they don’t really care. All they care about is that it is not cancer! Did you get that? Caelan is completely healthy with no cancer! Praise God from whom all blessings flow! Thank you all for your prayers! After getting the news last friday that the PET Scan was lighting up, we all feared the worst, but God is so gracious. I don’t know exactly what happened, but I don’t have to. All I know is that we serve an awesome, loving, good God. He answers prayers!

Thank you all so much for the prayers. Spread the word! Today is a very good day! Words cannot express how grateful I am. It’s like we got our family and our life back. Praise God!!!

I’ll definitely be writing more on this later. There’s just too much to say right now!

2. Lets take the story of Paul in the Bible. He is an example of God healing someone emotionally. Paul had a thorn in his flesh and asked the Lord 3 times to heal him. God told Paul no because God wanted to keep Paul from becoming conceited because of the powerful revelations that were given to him from God. God told him “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.” This is an example of God giving you the grace to go on. I’ve had to depend on this scripture many times just trusting that there’s a greater good involved. There are many reasons I can think of of why God would heal me and why He wouldn’t. I don’t know what the outcome is. I just know that it’s for the good.

3. The study I gave you in a previous comment was an example of health and symptoms improving.
Here’s the study.
“The first large study attesting to the power of what scientists call distance healing was published in 1988 by a lone West Coast cardiologist named Randolph C. Byrd. He found that patients in a coronary intensive care unit who were prayed for needed fewer antibiotics, diuretic “water pills,” and help with breathing than those in an unprayed-for control group. All 393 patients knew they were volunteers in a study, but none knew whether they were marked as prayer recipients or cast randomly into the control group.

Independent follow-up research 11 years later produced similar results. Coronary intensive care patients who were prayed for — controversial because in this case they had no idea they were players in a scientific study on prayer — did measurably better in their overall hospital course than a control group. Why? “God is the simplest answer,” says William S. Harris at St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, who led the research.”

This is one way prayer can become damaging. It’s amazing to me how many crooks out there will come with all sorts of solutions as to how to receive a miracle from God. The Word of Faith movement and The Prosperity Gospel is probably the most damaging. They believe you can “name it and claim it.” They believe that it’s God’s will that you should always prosper materially without taking into consideration that a situation like Paul’s was for his benefit spiritually. That’s why praying for a miracle and not getting it can be very harmful if you don’t understand what scripture teaches. Sure God blesses financially and physically but He’s more concerned with your spiritual health. I often wonder that if God were to heal me would I continue to serve Him or say “I got my miracle, see ya.” If I were to do that why would God heal me? I would rather He not until my heart is right. That doesn’t mean you don’t pray for miracles, blessings, finances, etc… It means that you have to have a clear understanding of the nature of God. I would never cease to ask God for anything because He says to pray about everything but I understand that He has the final say in the matter and whatever He decides it’s for good. I can’t imagine what people must think if they don’t get their healing or the brand new car that they claimed in Jesus name. It must be devastating emotionally. This is just one example of prayer being harmful.

…Jewish framework for understanding (to quote the title of this post) ‘the location of Jesus’…

-d-

Neil, no, this was an estimate based on the assumption that Jesus was bodily raised and continued to obey the known laws of physics.

Actually, the original intent of the post was to highlight the vast size of the universe with a little humour thrown in but as you can see some people have taken this very seriously indeed. We’ve got dimensions, shrouds, miracles, laminin, prayer requests and Jewish interpretations coming out of our ears!