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	<title>Comments on: Bill Cooke vs William Lane Craig</title>
	<atom:link href="http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/</link>
	<description>The Bloggery of Damian Peterson</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dale Campbell</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1436</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1436</guid>
		<description>yeah, lots of different kinds of 'evidence' and 'knowledge' within 'reality' too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, lots of different kinds of &#8216;evidence&#8217; and &#8216;knowledge&#8217; within &#8216;reality&#8217; too&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>The amazing thing about science, though, is how those preconceived beliefs are always up for question, and very often proved wrong. So knowledge undergoes continual renewal. (I am urged to say this because my current reading is proposing that special relativity may well be proved wrong!)

It's perfectly natural to prefer simplistic claims and cherry pick evidence to support them - but history suggests that in the long run humanity seems to prefer a more objective knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The amazing thing about science, though, is how those preconceived beliefs are always up for question, and very often proved wrong. So knowledge undergoes continual renewal. (I am urged to say this because my current reading is proposing that special relativity may well be proved wrong!)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s perfectly natural to prefer simplistic claims and cherry pick evidence to support them - but history suggests that in the long run humanity seems to prefer a more objective knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Campbell</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>(not trying to get the last word)
...but we all have a preconceived belief about what the 'real world' is (or most definitely cannot be, absolutely most positively and certainly isn't)...  
(sigh...  This whole science &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; (as opposed to 'or' or 'versus') philosophy thing really needs to be grasped, me thinks.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(not trying to get the last word)<br />
&#8230;but we all have a preconceived belief about what the &#8216;real world&#8217; is (or most definitely cannot be, absolutely most positively and certainly isn&#8217;t)&#8230;<br />
(sigh&#8230;  This whole science <i>and</i> (as opposed to &#8216;or&#8217; or &#8216;versus&#8217;) philosophy thing really needs to be grasped, me thinks.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1432</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1432</guid>
		<description>Yes, I do agree. And very often these simplistic claims are used to justify a preconceived belief, rather than derive knowledge about the real world, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I do agree. And very often these simplistic claims are used to justify a preconceived belief, rather than derive knowledge about the real world, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Campbell</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 04:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>I sense (and suspect you would agree here) that the whole thing (the conversation about morality, in particular) is more complex than anyone's claim (or denial) of a 'special role' for any discipline...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sense (and suspect you would agree here) that the whole thing (the conversation about morality, in particular) is more complex than anyone&#8217;s claim (or denial) of a &#8217;special role&#8217; for any discipline&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1429</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1429</guid>
		<description>Still avoids the issue. Forget about science - its not claiming any special role here. But religion is. If religion makes a claim to make value judgements - then it should justify that claim. To justify it by default (Dembski's design filter) is a cop out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still avoids the issue. Forget about science - its not claiming any special role here. But religion is. If religion makes a claim to make value judgements - then it should justify that claim. To justify it by default (Dembski&#8217;s design filter) is a cop out.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Campbell</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1427</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1427</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ken,
I'm not sure how I've misrepresented you, but sorry if I have.

I don't think I've ever said "science has no role" in morality (who are you quoting?).  I think science informs the moral discussion along with various other disciplines, and, of course, should always have a voice.

Having said that, the &lt;i&gt;way that science contributes to the conversation&lt;/i&gt; is different than the other disciplines.  Science makes no &lt;i&gt;value judgments&lt;/i&gt;, so in terms of rights, worth, meaning, and moral determinations, its contribution is somewhat like a scope on a rifle - it helps you see what you're aiming at with greater detail; which is immensely and crucially helpful at times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ken,<br />
I&#8217;m not sure how I&#8217;ve misrepresented you, but sorry if I have.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve ever said &#8220;science has no role&#8221; in morality (who are you quoting?).  I think science informs the moral discussion along with various other disciplines, and, of course, should always have a voice.</p>
<p>Having said that, the <i>way that science contributes to the conversation</i> is different than the other disciplines.  Science makes no <i>value judgments</i>, so in terms of rights, worth, meaning, and moral determinations, its contribution is somewhat like a scope on a rifle - it helps you see what you&#8217;re aiming at with greater detail; which is immensely and crucially helpful at times.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1426</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 04:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1426</guid>
		<description>Dale - you misrepresent me.

My point has always been that religion has no &lt;b&gt;special&lt;/b&gt; role in deciding what is right and wrong. (It has, in fact, in the past been a repository for moral views but I think there are wider avenues for that now. And I think many people feel religion has discredited itself in this area).

However, when a discipline argues for a special role in this, or any other, area it should do so on its own merits - not by knocking down a straw man ("science has no role") and then claiming the role for itself as the only other alternative. This is just like Dembski's 'design filter' (which I notice Craig also using in his 'fine tuning' argument).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale - you misrepresent me.</p>
<p>My point has always been that religion has no <b>special</b> role in deciding what is right and wrong. (It has, in fact, in the past been a repository for moral views but I think there are wider avenues for that now. And I think many people feel religion has discredited itself in this area).</p>
<p>However, when a discipline argues for a special role in this, or any other, area it should do so on its own merits - not by knocking down a straw man (&#8221;science has no role&#8221;) and then claiming the role for itself as the only other alternative. This is just like Dembski&#8217;s &#8216;design filter&#8217; (which I notice Craig also using in his &#8216;fine tuning&#8217; argument).</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Campbell</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1424</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1424</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But in practice we don’t.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Don't we? (knowingly or not?)
&lt;blockquote&gt;(And let’s face it - the argument here has been for denying a role for one of these disciplines).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, that's not what &lt;i&gt;I'm&lt;/i&gt; arguing for... (though in the past, you yourself have seemed rather happy with 'religion' [again, not a word I particularly like] being denied a role - or at least severely downplaying its role?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But in practice we don’t.</p></blockquote>
<p>Don&#8217;t we? (knowingly or not?)</p>
<blockquote><p>(And let’s face it - the argument here has been for denying a role for one of these disciplines).</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, that&#8217;s not what <i>I&#8217;m</i> arguing for&#8230; (though in the past, you yourself have seemed rather happy with &#8216;religion&#8217; [again, not a word I particularly like] being denied a role - or at least severely downplaying its role?)</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://damian.peterson.net.nz/2008/06/18/bill-cooke-vs-william-lane-craig/#comment-1422</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://damian.peterson.net.nz/?p=149#comment-1422</guid>
		<description>Yes, of course Dale. But in practice we don't. Very often arguments from these disciplines are justifications for a preconceived position, rather than used to derive the position.
(And let's face it - the argument here has been for denying a role for one of these disciplines).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, of course Dale. But in practice we don&#8217;t. Very often arguments from these disciplines are justifications for a preconceived position, rather than used to derive the position.<br />
(And let&#8217;s face it - the argument here has been for denying a role for one of these disciplines).</p>
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